Tonight the Winnebago County Board of Supervisors will be asked to approve the acceptance of a grant to allow the purchase of touch screen voting machines. Due to real vote security concerns, the Board should reject touch screen voting.As recently as May 12, the New York Times reported on "New Fears of Security Risks in Electronic Voting Systems." They say that "with primary dates fast approaching in many states, officials in Pennsylvania and California issued urgent directives in recent days about a potential security risk in thier Diebold Elections Systems touch-screen voting machines . . ." The article goes on to talk about the nature of the security risks and the legal challenges to the machines going on across the country.
Wisconsin law requires that all electronic voting systems produce a paper record of all votes cast. That is not enough to ensure voter confidence. The recent Becker/Weinsheim recount cost $20,000 due to Becker's vigilance in uncovering every possible flaw in the system. Can you imagine a recount in an election using touch-screen voting? Recounts could go on endlessly and $20,000 will seem like pocket-change as candidates employ computer technicians and software experts to uncover flaws in the touch-screen system.
Andrew Kantor had it right in a June of 2004 USA Today op-ed: "Today's electronic voting machines are unreliable and unsecure. Until the multitude of problems they present are worked out, these systems need to be removed from service, period."
29 comments:
Tony,
I don't know much about Touch Screen voting but I do not belive it is accurate to say the recount took so long due to "Becker's vigilance in uncovering every possible flaw in the system." First of all vigilance is not the word I would use for what went on because most of what he "uncovered" were NOT flaws in the system at all but rather his attempt to throw out votes that were completely legitimate. If you go back and review the minutes you will see that the majority of the objections were for things that were not flaws or mistakes at all (envelopes signed in pencil, no address for a witness, signed on the wrong line etc.) None of these things are required under the law and were not mistakes or flaws in the system so I don't think it is vigilance to raise objections to things that are perfectly legal.
I do think you are right though, that in a future recall using touch screen machines, someone like Becker would likely call in computer technicians, softeware experts etc. and drag things on even longer than this last recount.
Call your county board supervisors about this TODAY -
http://www.co.winnebago.wi.us/CountyBoard/CountyBoardList.htm
Every election outcome using these machines will be put in doubt.
Listen to Ron,
I researched this voting thing awhile back and unfortunatley my memory is not what I'd like, but I do recall that the voting contracts are huge behmoth monopoly type deals and the main player is I beleive, keeping their money off shore or something like that.
Techno-gods have testified to the ease of manipulating the code to produce desired results ( a no-brainer) and no one would be the wiser.
It was a mess, I should be a responsible, professional Cyber-Snipin' Mouse Jockey and have documentation instead of scary tales of machines that go "bump" on election day, but I'm too busy watching my lot lines for the encroachment of illegal aliens.
Be vigilant! The Sodomites are coming!
whoa, that was bad, what will the censors say?
Give it a rest already.
Teresa, you could have quit with the statement "I don't know much." From watching you post, one would think Dan Becker had peed in your cheerios on one of the recount days. You take this so personally, but seem to have missed where we have all gotten past bashing Dan (though clearly you haven't) and are discussing preventing future problems on election days. Instead you argue semantics with Tony. His use of the word 'vigilance' could have been serious or sarcastic. You jump the gun with your own illustrious opinion without respecting anyone elses or even taking the time to find out what that opinion might be. No one is going to read the minutes, we've gotten past that and some of us wish you would gain some forward momentum and join us in the discussion of the future of voting in Winnebago County. We can't change what was, but we can work together to prevent future problems. Or do you like living in the past?
Tony,
I realize there are some who insist on linking everything to do with elections to Dan Becker and even blame him for stuff that hasn't happened yet ("Becker would likely call in computer technicians, softeware experts etc. and drag things on"). I would point out that I was present for a conversation between Paul Esslinger and Pam Ubrig that occured during the recount. You'll have to take my word for it, the conversation was not noticed in the recount minutes, official ones that is. Paul asked Pam about touchscreens. Pam indicated that they were coming. This gave me the impression that the technology was being looked into before the last election, much less the recount. Maybe Paul or Pam could give more information on the matter. Supposedly, these machines are supposed to prevent some of the problems that were "discovered" during the last election. It certainly would have eliminated the dozens of objections by BOTH candidates over missed initials. Touchscreens would not have magically produced absentee ballot applications though. I do wonder how absentee ballots will be handled with the new system, should it pass.
Computers are too easy to hack into. I think Babblemur is right to revolt and call the county board supervisors.
Mrs. Thiel,
You really must get a better handle on your constant berating and bashing of certain persons you have made us all painfully aware of. I too, was there at the recount, your continued tainted view and comments about what YOU feel happened there are just that your tainted views. THERE were protocols and procedures that were not followed. However I do not believe them to rise to the level of malious and/or proposeful. None the less these protocols are in place for a specific reason, that is to protect the candidates as well as the voters.
Some of us walked away from the recount learning and appreciating the long hours, hardwork and new found respect for a process that I think we take for granted far to often. I KNOW that Pam Ubrig has and will continue to monitor the process to make every effort in the future to avoid the same mistakes.
Now maybe you could spend sometime researching the "touch Voting system" and move on to gain perspective. I wish you well in your endeavor to do just that!
Melanie Bloechl
That comment could have easily ended before the last paragraph. But in typical Bloechl fashion she had to swing her snooty verbal hammer at another person she's had a history of dislike toward. Tacky.
It is regrettable that the state of discussion has crumbled into such chaos that Mrs. Thiel has become a punching bag. She is really a very nice lady.
I do not personally know Mr. Becker but as one who has paid attention to school board meetings I can say my lasting impression of him is of a glowering figure hunched in his space with little more than negative opinions on most everything. I did not approach his tenure with any kind of preconceived image of him one way or the other. His own actions etched my perception of him in broad flowing lines.
While there is much talk of "transparency" in government and contracts, computer voting seems to present a cold technical face fraught with numerous loopholes and opportunities for fraud. If only for that reason we should, perhaps, step lightly.
My husband spent nearly twenty-five years working for an oil company in intimate daily contact with computing machines, including one of only two Cray Super Computers in existence at that time. He is slow to jump to conclusions and has little use for wild speculation, but has many reservations about placing faith in technology that can be so easily and so seamlessly converted to "the dark side". He would agree with Jody in her warnings...and perhaps go even further.
And last: In the latest Harper's there is a review of a book first published in 1972 (or thereabouts) by the widow of a Russian poet taken by the police and never to return. The book concerns itself with the outrages of the Stalinist period as background to the disintegration of the personal lives of the couple. The reviewer regretfully notes the blatant similarities with our own country in these times. The book's title is Hope Against Hope.
How is Bloechl's comment tacky? Thiel started her post by saying that she "doesn't know much about touch screen voting" yet she continued on to add her opinion of Dan Becker AGAIN. THAT is the tacky comment. This posting is about the touch screens, not the recount. Now back to the issue;
On election night, 2 memory cards were turned in downtown blank. I don't know how they were erased, but they were. Fortunatly, the paper ballots were available to back up the cards, but what will happen if the cards from a touch screen come up blank? What sort of back up is available if the paper ballots are no longer used? How will recounts work if there are no ballots? Will these machines eliminate the errors that were made during the last election? I would like to gather more information before rejecting this as an option.
//Target//
It was her last paragraph that reaked of snottiness. It's that kind of irrelevant retort we've come to expect from her over the years. She would not be a target of her own if she would make her point and leave it be without taking parting shots that show her as small.
Citizen, some people are incapable of having a discussion without making their personal and political opponents into punching bags. Wisely, you pointed that out. They haven't figured out that their real arguments are lost when they cover them up with their anger and dislike for others.
I thought the purpose of blogs was to have a discussion. Why are people jumping on Mrs. Theil for expressing her opinion? She addressed a point Tony made about Dan Becker. I don't get you people anyway. You piss and moan when you believe someone is making comments and not signing their name, right or wrong, and when people do sign their names you still piss and moan. Someone hit the nail on the head the other day when they said there are some out here who want to intimidate others into not speaking their minds.
Why do you people keep giving Ms. Thiel attention. Clearly people don't care about her opinions or she whouldn't have been bounced off the board in her last election!
When you make statments like "we should tax to the max," like Ms. Thiel has, you're not going to garner much respect, and people aren't going to care about your opinions.
Why do you cotninue to be hung up on one thing? Are you a single issue voter? Look past your own ignorance and you'll see that she offered plenty of good things while on the school board and I'll bet has contributed more toward the district than you, even if you are a current, past or possible future school board member.
One thing??? Are you kidding? Tax to the max and spend even more? I can see how you would find that such a minor issue. Get off your soapbox, your 15 minutes are up.
There were other reasons that she lost the election. Now she is playing with the popular crowd, maybe she plans to make a run in '08 against Schnieder. Then we will have all 7 tax and spenders up there. What a pleasant thought.
//Target//
Yup, a typical response from the Monte gang. Can't have a mature discussion about the issues so toss out a few nastys and suggest she'll run for the board next year. Wasn't that one of this group's tacks before this last election? Sure it was.
You forgot to mention how they like to mention how she's playing with new people. If her political failings were so many, why only mention "tax to the max"?
When did the "Monte Gang" get into this discussion? Someone calling themselves Target made the comment about Thiel running again. Oh, I get it. This is more of the "I know who you are" accusations. Perhaps someone is trying to intimidate someone else from speaking their mind. Tsk, Tsk, children.
Here is a bone of contention I have with Mrs. Thiel: She fought hard to close down South Park pool to save money. It didn't. Then last year she spoke at a school board meeting to reopen the pool citing the fact that the district is wasting money keeping the pool full and clean without using it. I presume her child attends that school now and that is the only reason she cannon-balled the reopening of the pool. Isn't it interesting that it is NOT open to the public. I called and asked when it is open for swimming for the students of other schools. There is only swimming when South Park has swimming for gym class twice a year. Yet the entire district supports the cost of the pool only one school gets to use.
Another bone of contention, she is never completely honest about anything. There always seems to be a political spin on everything she barks about. If she doesn't like someone, she continuously takes pot shots. Has Dan Becker ever said anyting about her ever? Not here, nor on other sites, yet she takes her shots whenver she can. She may be nice towards a few chosen ones, but she is disrespectful, immature, and borish to many, many others. Keep in mind this is my opinion, and just like mrs. Thiel about Dan Becker, I am entitled to think what I want. Maybe Mrs. Thiel thinks she has enough friends and friendly acquaintances that she does not need to show consideration for anyone else. That certainly does not show that she can work well with others. As my mother used to say, treat those as you would like to be treated even if they are mean first. She also said that boys pick on girls because they like them, maybe that applies to anyone regardless of gender
It didn't say it was one of the Montes. Surely you know what the word gang means? Target has been very support of Mrs. Monte all along. Get it now?
So, what. Anonymous has been supportive of Thiel. Now we know each has at least one friend. What does any of this have to do with touch screen voting?
New Voice,
I would suggest you get your facts in order before you make your comments. First I did not fight "hard to close down South Park pool to save money." I did vote to close the pool at a time when we were cutting the budget by 1.5+ Million dollars and we were told it would save $50,000 and the pool would be closed (as in drained and not used). Fact #1: I voted in July of 2003 to close the pool, in September of 2003 my oldest daughter started school at South Park, that blows your theory that I voted to close it when I didn't have a child there. Fact #2 both of my children HATE the fact that the pool is open -- again, there goes your theory I was involved in the re-opening of the pool for my children's sake. Fact #3 I did not speak at the school board meeting asking that the pool be re-opened, I attended the meeting but I did NOT speak. I am on the South Park Site Council and the issue was raised several times at our meetings that the Site Council should look into getting the pool re-opened. I did not bring the issue up and didn't have a strong feeling one way or the other initially. I was surprised to learn the the pool never really was shut down, rather they just stopped heating the water, the pool was full and the water was being treated on a regular basis just not heated. As a former board member I offered the Site Council my opinion as to the best way to proceed to ask the board to consider re-opening the pool. Fact #4 I did not "cannon ball the reopening of the pool". See Fact #3 above.
Fact #5 The pool is currently not open to the public because the recreation department wants to concentrate their efforts on the new water park opening and isn't interested at this time in opening the South Park pool to the public, the South Park Site Council would like to have the pool available for public use but that is not up to them, that is up to the recreation department. Fact #6, South Park has always been the only Middle School with a pool paid for by district funds.
Fact #7 I did not take pot-shots at Mr. Becker I just reminded people that the recount did not uncover numerous errors, rather the majority of objections to have votes thrown out related to things that were not mistakes or illegal, just something Mr. Becker didn't agree with, like ballots signed in pencil or signed on the wrong line -- that is not an opinion it is fact supported by the official minutes. That is not taking a pot shot it is simply stating what happened.
Target,
FYI, you can't "tax to the max and spend even more". The district is not allowed to deficit spend, it is against the law, that is why the school district has a balanced budget every year. And the term I used was to levy to the limit allowed under the law, state statue already limits the revenue a district can raise and when you are in the bottom 9% of school districts in the state (out of 426) it does not make sense for the good of your district to limit that amount even further. One more fact, the property tax rate for the school district has been cut in half in the last 10 years and since 1994 the tax rate has gone down more times than it has gone up. Also, I am not the only person in Oshkosh who thinks we should levy to the limit, there are plenty more, many just don't say it in public and I certainly understand why.
Teresa,
A pole cat by any other name is still a skunk!!
Who cares what you call it? Levy to the limit, TAX TO THE MAX, IT IS THE SAME THING!!!
Now, lets talk about the machines rather than each other.
//Target//
With weird remarks like that it's no wonder Target selected the screen name they have.
I think Target was referring to the stench eminating from Thiel. Like her fact #3. Thiel DID speak in front of the board about opening the South Park Pool. Either BOE meeting or Fifth Wednesday forum, yeah I attend those once in a while, it was either September or October because one of the candidates mentioned it on one of Hentz's episodes.
How about Fact #1, she votes on something she doesn't fully understand. There is a big difference between closing a pool from swimmers and draining it. The budget shows that. Fact #2, if you claim not to have spoken in front of the BOE and actually did, why would anyone believe your spawn? Fact #5, if you are on their site council and that site counsel wants the pool open, the rec dept is under the BOE pervue, why didn't anyone speak to the board about extending hours when the rec dept is not offering lessons and the aquatic center isn't open? Fact #7, read the minutes from day one where Pam Ubrig reported the errors she found. How about day 4 where Becker's attorney pointed out other errors in how votes were being counted? Here's something else that happened, I think needs reminding: Amy objected too. She objected to ballots with one set of initials. Those were votes that are supposed to be counted. I would remind you that your dear friend of three years also screwed up. Oh my gosh, more human error. Nobody's perfect? Say it isn't so.
Levy that to the limit, tax to the max! No matter how you say it, it is all rotten.
New Voice go back to the minutes and READ what actually took place instead of relying on your less than perfect memory. As for the recount issues, they've already been addressed, so now who's trying to keep things going? I'm amazed you can make any comments at all the way your head is spinning. And just because a candidate says something on a TV show doesn't mean they had their facts straight. Look at the minutes from the meeting you talked about. That's all anyone needs to do to prove you wrong. Good day New Voice.
New Voice, that candidate you mentioned would be Mr. Becker and I don't think he actually said I came and spoke to the board but rather I was working to have the pool opened and interestingly made the same false accusation that you did, that I closed the pool when I didn't have a student there and then wanted it reopened when I did. As I stated before, the pool was closed right before the beginning of the school year when my oldest started in 6th grade at South Park. After Mr. Becker"s erroneous comments I decided that it would not be in the best interest of South Park/Site Council for me to speak at the board meeting, I told the Principal that I would not be speaking at the board meeting to re-open the pool because I didn't want the discussion to be about me, I wanted it to focus on the pool, that is why I know I did not speak at a school board meeting to re-open the pool.
We asked the Director of the recreation department if he would be interested in opening the pool to the public and he said he did not think he would have the capacity to staff it, because of the water park opening, he wanted to focus the department's efforts there. We are still working to find a way to open the pool to the public.
I think your "fact #7" has been explained enough times, sorry you can't grasp it.
I seem to recal an fifth wednesday forum about either the calendar or the math curriculum where Mrs. Thiel said she wasn't there about the particular topic, but wanted to speak on the South Park pool. She stated it was fiscally irresponsible to have that pool filled with water and pay for the upkeep without anyone having use of it. That would seem to be a fair argument no matter what was voted in the past.
I heard about that from somone who went, too.
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